Dialogue #1

[Keith]

Hi everyone,

I offer the following dialogue for discussion.

Dialogue #1

Mother: Say thank you to uncle Bruce for the lovely present.
Daughter: What for?
M: Because it’s the polite thing to do.
D: But what if I don’t want to do the polite thing.
M: Don’t be rude. Say thank you.
D: Mother... is it more important to do what I am told than to learn how to find out, for myself, what expectations people might have of me so that I can then choose an appropriate, for me, way of communicating with them?
M: But you see, being polite is important if you want to be able to communicate with people.
D: But if I do what you consider polite how will I ascertain whether they are at all interested in creating a rapport with me?
M: It is the child’s duty to create rapport with the adult, not the other way around. You must show adults respect.
D: Is it important for adults to show children respect?
M: Of course... yes.
D: How would I know that an adult is showing me respect?
M: Ummm... they would show interest in your interests.
D: Mummy?
M: Yes.
D: I’m not interested in saying thank you to uncle Bruce.
M: Don’t be silly. Say thank you to uncle Bruce.
D: Mummy?
M: Yes.
D: Is it O.K. to lie to adults?
M: No, of course it isn’t.
D: But if I say thank you to uncle Bruce because you told me to, and I don’t mean it, will I not be lying?
M: It is the show of politeness that provides the lubricant for social intercourse.
D: How do you know that uncle Bruce expects me to say thank you?
M: It’s just what people do. It’s polite.
D: Is it polite to assume that uncle Bruce thinks the same way as everyone else?
M: It’s just a convention that we use in our society.
D: But a convention will not necessarily be respectful of uncle Bruce’s individuality. Is it like a lie that everyone assumes everyone agrees to?
M: It is not a lie. It is just polite behaviour.
D: So... if uncle Bruce expects me to reply in a certain way that means that he is not interested in how I want to communicate... he wants me to behave like a robot. And if you expect uncle Bruce to want to communicate in accord with some social convention then that means that you are not interested in whether uncle Bruce wants to communicate with me in that fashion or not.
M: Just say thank you, dear.
D: Mummy... what do you want me to do the polite thing for?
M: As I said, it is the socially acceptable thing to do. It assists communication.
D: What do you want me to do the socially acceptable thing for?
M: So that it will help you with communicating with others.
D: I understand that... what I want to know is what that will do for you?
M: What do you mean? It won’t do anything for me. It will help you.
D: So if it won’t do anything for you then you won’t care if I do it or not.
M: I want you to be able to communicate with others.
D: And what will you get if I am able to communicate with others?
M: Nothing. It’s just what parents do.
D: So... if you won’t get anything from it, you don’t care if I do it or not.
M: What? No, no... I mean... you will be able to communicate with other people.
D: Mummy... here’s my concern. You say you won’t get anything from me doing polite behaviour and when I say that, as a natural corollary, you won’t care if I do polite behaviour or not, you then insist that I still do polite behaviour. For you to insist that I do polite behaviour presupposes that you will indeed get something from me doing polite behaviour. What will you get?
M: I will feel like a good parent because my daughter is polite to people.
D: Thank you, Mummy.

D: Mummy... is doing what I should do more important than doing what I want to do?
M: You know, when I think about it, it’s very rude of you to ask me these questions.
D: What’s your favourite colour, Mummy?
M: Huh, what? Ummm... purple, I think. Why do you ask?
D: How is it that you didn’t tell me that question was rude?
M: It wasn’t rude. It’s just that some questions are rude.
D: Which questions are rude?
M: Ahh... questions about how people think... and what they believe... and why they believe what they believe.
D: Do you want to know what I believe?
M: I already know what you believe. You believe what I believe.
D: What if I want to believe something different.
M: What for?
D: Isn’t that like one of those rude questions?
M: Go to your bedroom!

D: Mummy?
M: Yes.
D: What would you do if I chose not to do polite behaviour?
M: I would shout at you, or smack you, or stop showing you affection.
D: As a punishment?
M: Yes.
D: Mummy... will you help me find someone who will show me affection for choosing what I want to do?
M: No.

D: Mummy?
M: Yes.
D: Is your feeling like a good parent more important than my choice?
M: No, of course not. Look, you’re a child, and you need to know that there are socially acceptable ways of doing things. I can teach you those things.
D: And I can choose to do them or not.
M: No, I still insist that you do polite behaviour.
D: So you’re not interested in my choice. Your feeling like a good parent is more important than my choice. Your use of the injunction “Insist” means that what you want is more important than what I want. I learned to walk and talk by observing and interacting with you and so I imagine there is a pretty good chance that I can learn polite behaviour by observing and interacting with you. I can choose to walk, I can choose to talk, and I can choose to do polite behaviour
M: O.K. smarty pants, what good will it do you if someone doesn’t want to talk to you because you were not polite to them?
D: I will discover that they are not interested in what I am interested in or what I believe.

D: Mummy?
M: Yes.
D: Do you think the world would be a less violent place, a more loving place, if people had fewer expectations of each other?
M: I don’t know, dear... I don’t know.

© 2004 by Keith Gilbert


I look forward to any questions and comments you may have.

All the best,

Keith

[hanabi]

So how do we reconcile our own (or our children's) desires to behave, speak or think sincerely with the social expectation to behave, speak or think in an "appropriate" way? I meet this conflict every day, "say sorry!", "share your toys!", "say please!". Should we even be concerned with social expectations? Will a child understand the difference between what is sincere and what is expected?


Jodie

[Keith]

Hi Jodie,

With regard to your post of Jun 29, 2004 - 10:54 AM,

You asked;

“So how do we reconcile our own (or our children's) desires to behave, speak or think sincerely with the social expectation to behave, speak or think in an "appropriate" way? I meet this conflict every day, "say sorry!", "share your toys!", "say please!". Should we even be concerned with social expectations? Will a child understand the difference between what is sincere and what is expected?”

Let’s look at an example. If you have a belief that children ‘should’ be polite and behave in socially acceptable ways then you cannot learn anything outside of that belief... such as contextual appropriateness; where may it be useful to do polite, socially acceptable behaviour and where might it be less than useful or even dangerous?

The limiting belief, then, limits you to finding different ways to break a child’s spirit so that he/she will behave as expected. The child’s ability to practise ‘choosing’ and ‘discernment’ is of no value to a person with that sort of limiting belief.

Let’s face it, the only reason that parents demand that their children behave as expected is to show people that they are good parents with polite, well behaved children. Yes, I know... parents will argue that they have to teach their children good manners so that they can function in society. But that’s just a smoke screen for their own insecurities... what they really want is to NOT be seen as BAD PARENTS who don’t know how to raise polite children.

Automatic behaviour may be useful in contexts where it would be useful. Behaving automatically all the time, independent of context, not only limits a person’s ability to learn and apply flexibility of thought and so flexibility of action/behaviour... it’s downright dangerous.

Jodie, if a child can learn to crawl, walk, and talk all by mimicking (modelling) her parents then that child can also ‘model’ her parents when they are doing polite behaviour. When a parent demands that a child behave in certain ways, that that child can choose to model and subsequently demonstrate anyway, then that says it all... doesn’t it?

Should we even be concerned with social expectations? Well, I have chosen to view each new context as unique and so I have behaved according to my outcomes in those contexts.

Will a child understand the difference between what is sincere and what is expected? Only if her ability to practise discernment is valued by her parents!!!!!!!

All the best,

Keith

May my children be strangers to me... always,
for I can love only when I embrace uncertainty.

[hanabi]

So we can always trust that they will take the appropriate information on board so long as we can provide appropriate models of behaviour? Now doesn't that take a lot of the stress out of parenting! PHEW! That gives me just a little bit more energy to direct into minding my own Ps & Qs.

[Keith]

Hi Jodie,

If there is no neurological damage we know that a child will model the behaviours of those around them. I'm not sure what you mean by 'appropriate'. All behaviour is appropriate somewhere. And 'choice' is more flexible than automatic behaviour.

When we demonstrate 'process' models of behaviour, that is, choosing behaviour appropriate to context rather than just behaving automatically, then we are modelling for our children a little something called 'wisdom'. All we really need to do, parallel to modelling wisdom, is to assess contexts in terms of safety so that our children can make the requisite (non fatal) mistakes for learning to occur.

All the best,

Keith

[hanabi]

By "appropriate" I meant, "appropriate to context" which does incorporate choice.

to assess contexts in terms of safety

Are there any other contexts where it would be "appropriate" for a parent to intervene? We have battles over such silly things as bottom wiping, tissue using and hand washing. While grubby fingers, noses and bottoms don't really qualify as "safety" wouldn't it be appropriate to have "rules" regarding hygiene? I can be really creative in some contexts while others (like these mentioned) leave me exasperated! I have difficulty enforcing these activities creatively or even making them attractive activities to pursue! 2 I don't feel comfortable letting them manage themselves here and waiting until they adopt behaviour we model. I try not to be "the enforcer" but I feel like that's what I am some days.

Jodie

[Keith]

Hi Jodie,

I have broken parenting down into two categories;

1. Logistics
2. Relating

Surely ensuring your childrens' hygiene is assessing contexts in terms of safety? This is a logistical consideration as opposed to one of relationship. It would be like telling a baby to change his own nappy... don’t think so!

The challenge, among many challenges in parenting, is to figure out where logistics is appropriate and where creative influence (relating) is appropriate. The role of 'enforcer' is appropriate in some contexts.

All the best,

Keith

[hanabi]

So I'm not such a tyrant after all!

[Keith]

I want to add to my post of Jun 29, 2004 - 10:54 AM, that in addition to looking like good parents, parents demand children behave as expected (polite and well behaved) for the sake of convenience. And the desire to have a life that is nothing but convenient means that that parent is not interested in learning or evolving his/her mind.

All the best,

Keith

[hanabi]

... or enhancing the potential lying latent in their children.