what does everyone think about charts for 3yo

[kadownie]

Jsut wanted to know everyones thoughts.

Recently in desparation I wrote out a chart each for the twins for the night time routine- it's very simple- a tick when they do the task and if they go to bed with no carry on then they can have a sticker...

so far it's working beautifully- they absolutely love it!

I keep having these thoughts of 'is the right thing to do?' I can't quite articulate why it's making me uneasy- and I was hoping for some guidance from all of you wise women.

I know my feeling is around rules- not wanting my children to be 'bound' by rules or something.. as I said, I'm having a lot of trouble articulating my thoughts about it.

so please share with me your views-

[hanabi]

As a general rule, I'm wary of the use of charts for motivating kids. But I'm also not unwilling to compromise if it's a measure that offers some balance to family life. If they love it, and are responsive to it just for the sake of collecting stickers, then I don't see a great deal of harm in it.

If they are responding because it's a race to a larger goal - say a reward for so many stickers accrued, I'm not so sure. It would seem artificial to motivate them to do something that is in their own best interest by offering consistent 'bribes' (for want of a better word) and would surely backfire in the long term. Real life doesn't work that way.

But if it's a simple chart, and they're enjoying the process of following it, I don't see why not. This is a hard stage of life that we're at and so long as we still model the behaviour we desire of our kids, and so long as we give them congruent messages about why we do the things we do, I say go for it. Don't beat yourself up for needing evenings to be a little easier. They're at an age where they can start to understand that their needs are not the only needs within the family unit, and I trust that you'll know when they still need some individual attention to get them off to sleep in the evenings. It's all good.

My question to you is: why does this make you uneasy? Is there something else that complicates this beyond a simple chart to streamline bedtime routines?

And we both know the novelty could well wear off before long... So then what?

[alzarex]

we had a similar chart when DS was younger - so he would know what came next and so there were no 'suprises' but without the sticker at the end - it lasted a few weeks until the novelty wore off but by then the *routine* (in the lightest sense of the word) had kicked in

of late DD1 has been having great difficulty remembering to go to the toilet and as a result of knickers rubbing had some nasty sores on her bottom - i too don't like the chart/rewards scheme - but in desperation i found a pack of flower stickers and she gets one for every dry day and if she gets a good period (say 4 - 5 days atm) in a row then she can have a fairy sticker, we envisage this will last until her body has relearnt to recognise full bladder then the stickers will slowly fade away, but it's certainly not a chart on the fridge type thing that everyone else knows about iykwim hth

so in summary - yes we use a variation, but only very sparingly (twice in a combined 8 years of childhood) and we fade it out as soon as the need disippates

r

[kadownie]

Jodie- I don't know why it makes me feel uneasy...I guess I was hoping that someone would say something and I'd have a 'aha' moment... sometimes it's like that for me- I can feel a certain way but not be able to articulate why...iykwim..

I don't really do the rewards thing- it's just a tick off of things that need to be done and a sticker if they settle easily- which they seem to most nights. Of course if there's issues I'm happy to lie down with them and comfort- it's not really about withholding time and attention for me- but I guess the last thing I do is ask them if they want a sticker tonight- and if so they need to settle with no carry on..they know if they start calling out (unless there's an issue or they're thirsty or something) than the sticker is off the cards.

I guess maybe the stickers are a bribe... and that's bothering me a bit. Also, Ellie espcially- though she is fiery and won't do something she doesn't want to do- she seems to be a bit of a people pleaser at times, which I know is just her nature- and I do express my pleasure when they follow their chart and get themselves organised- I hope that she's not doing it just so she receives some recognition from me...that doesn't make sense what I've written.

for some reason the words 'rules' and 'schooling' and 'conforming' keep popping into my head when I try and figure out what I'm feeling/reacting to.

I mean I want my kids to do the right thing, and I want them to learn and to be honest, I guess I want them to conform to some things in life (espeically my wishes!)

maybe it's just a case of things going on with me personally- as I try and restructure a lot of my beliefs and flesh out some personal matters that I'm feeling over sensitive about it all... who would have thought that becoming a mother would mean that I could almost agonise over what a chart is teaching my children..

I know I mentioned it to my neighbour- and she's rewarding with a watch or something.. gosh- that will be expensive for them...I'm hoping that my kids don't find out- ticks might not seem so fabulous then

[GreenGully]

My issues with charts and rewards are the same as my issues with praise. I would rather my child settle off to sleep in his own time and in his own way rather than 'nice and quietly like a good boy' (not quoting any one here just emphasising) cos he know his body best and even if he doesn't always make the 'best' choice (not recognising his tired signs etc) I assume that it is just apart of his learning to listen to his body. I didn't always have this attitude towards my son's sleep and it has definitely become far easier for us since I have let him self regulate his sleep (and food). We are by no means completely there yet (like tonight I cracked it and it was so unhelpful) but I can see the results really clearly now. I think that encouraging children to behave in a certain way that is 'easy' for adults by giving them praise or rewards shows them that they should seek out that praise in life and that their own desires/needs come second to gaining approval of others.
ETA do you perhaps worry that the chart may cause some unnecessary competition between them?

[emd]

It's hard when they're so young, and little ones have a hard time coping with what they need to do when they're tired. I think it helps to have a routine, and at this age it's good for them to learn that there are boundaries on how they behave with others. In a perfect world we can all do anything we want. But in reality, we all need to do stuff that is good for us even if not fun, and to behave in a way that doesn't prevent others enjoying peace & quie tin the evening.

We also have a "routine" here of dinner, bath, teeth, bed. If they get dinner & bath done in time, we can have stories/playtime before bed. But if they carry on about the *necessary* things, there won't be much time for the *fun* things. We also have a bedtime "bribe": if they settle without fussing, they can take lots of teddies to bed. But if they squeal and yell and carry on, they don't get to take as many teddies/dollies to bed (still some, just not every toy they own). Politely asking to go to the toilet, or telling mummy "I need a cuddle" are fine. Screaming like a banshee and throwing bedding on the floor is not fine (and I can't tell what they want if they don't use their words).

[kadownie]

I hear what you're saying Gullygirl- we don't have a 'set time' per say for bed- it's around the same time everynight cause that's when they're tired- I guess having one grumpy 3 yr old around the house is a little different though to having two and a baby- I can't leave them to decide when would be best, as it would be caotic at some point. And our chart just helps them to know what they need to do next...

I'm not sure that I have a huge problem with praise- it does feel good to know that you've acheived something and for someone to recognize it- though I do see how it could lend to acting in a certain way for rewards.. I'm confused. I feel it can't be wrong to praise a child- or to encourage them at the very least.. I'm sure there are extremes of praise that I wouldn't be into.. don't know... I would be interested in learning about different ways to build self esteem I guess- and learning about effective ways of instilling that.

Yes, it is easy for me to help my kids behave in a certain way= do you really feel that's wrong. For me- I don't cope all that well when the twins are constantly tired and fighting with each other because I've left them to their own devices and let the muck around at night- we did try that for several months- and it is too hard having two tired children all the time, as well as having a grumpy Mum cause all of my time in the evening was spent trying to cool down and let them be, and then having foul mornings..

[GreenGully]

Yeah I guess what I do works for me in part cos its just us.

I don't think our job as parents is to "build self esteem". If we build their self esteem for them then they rely on us to feel good about themselves (and their teachers etc). HOw will they learn to be happy in their owns skins if they are always looking for outside approval? Praise, imo is really a form of manipulation. Acknowledging a child's achievement I think is different from praise. "you did it!" Personally I would be thanking my child for behaviour that makes life easier for me, rather than praising him. "thankyou for settling into bed quickly last night, it was really helpful for mummy." Maybe still not ideal but I think maybe more respectful to the child.

[kadownie]

Gullygirl- you've articulated what I've been feeling but couldn't put into words- you're right- I don't want my kids to base their confidence in themselves from other people- and only feel good because they are pleasing others... I'm thinking particularly of DD- she often 'behaves' to please I feel.

I do feel though that part of my role is to instill value into my child- teach them that they are valuable- isn't that part of self esteem?

As for acknowledgment and praise- I guess I do try to acknowledge. What would you say if a child was doing something that was helpful? What would you consider praise??

this is really helpful- thank you for your comments..

[GreenGully]

I wonder if self esteem really is something that is taught though? How would you do that? Telling them that they are valuable is really similar to the way praise works I think - ("you are valuable cos i tell you you are") Surely the combination of modeling your own healthy self esteem and showing a child respect is enough?
I suppose when I thank my child for doing something that is helpful to me I acknowledge that he has done something that has made my life easier. It isn't a value judgment imposed him, I am just showing that I appreciate what he has done for me and it is honest. I especially make sure I do this if he does something I have specifically asked him to do. Like last night he decided that having a try on the toilet before bed was a good idea after he had initially said no. I had explained to him that sometimes when he wakes up needing a wee he gets angry (and it is serious thrashing hitting kicking scratching) and hurts me. He thought about it and wow he got on the toilet and did a wee. He NEVER goes to the toilet when I make the suggestion (will hold on even if he needs it). I thanked him then for making sure we would have an interrupted sleep. I thanked him for listening to what i had had to say and for understanding why I really wanted him to sit on the toilet. I think it really respects and acknowledges that if he HADN'T done as I asked, then that would have been ok too, just not as easy for me perhaps. If I praised him for sitting on the toilet "good boy for doing a wee!" "what a big boy for doing a wee" or whatever, it sort of says that if he hadn't made the choice to sit on the toilet then he would not be big or good (and being a big boy is a huge deal to him because of the ridiculous amount of this kind of praise he received and childcare when he was going grr), or indeed bad. And that isn't honest at all and is probably quite confusing for a child. I hope that makes sense - its late!