Argumentative child

[Dorasmum]

My 5 year old daughter has become extremely argumentative. She'll counter everything I say just for the sake of it. She also says "but I'm 5 now" like that makes her the ultimate authority on everything, and able to do everything on her own. When I say no you can't do it, she just argues back, really pushes.

I know I'm supposed to not argue back, just ignore it, not give her the attention she is after but It's really hard not to because I have to still either stop her from doing something or get her to do the thing I need her to do that she doesn't want to or has a different opinion on how to do.

I am at a loss as to how to discipline her currently now too, she still has big tantrums, screaming and crying if I put her in the bathroom when I've had enough. She argues all the way there about how sorry she is and won't ever do it again. But it's all hollow as she'll do the same things the next day. I can get her where it hurts, and withhold a dvd viewing but the stress she gives me over that is worse than the thing she was being punished for in the first place. I just feel like she's lost all respect for me.

I'm tired of it, she's not at school yet, I don't know if that'll make the problem better or worse when she starts in a couple of months. I'm hoping it'll improve it because I know she's bored here at home and boredom creates mischief.

She can be, used to be more and is around others a lovely, polite, slightly shy girl, but I don't see it as much at home anymore. It's there but I guess she's working around her developing little brain in the best way she can see. It's normal right?? Any ideas??

Em

[GreenGully]

Can you make the arguments into healthy debates? can you consider her point of view when she contradicts you? If she is arguing for the sake of arguing then this might divert her and give you guys more interesting discussions perhaps?
Why do you think that punishing her isn't working? When she loses control and screams can you just let her rage and remove your self from harm's way? Can you talk her through it/ (when J loses it I explain to him that it is ok for him to be sad or angry but at some stage he is going to have to choose to calm down - when he is ready. Usually he calms down straight away or asks for a bf and calms down very quickly).

[hanabi]

Congratulations on your independent thinker Em! Really, as frustrated as you feel right now, your daughter is demonstrating to you how blessed with intelligence and autonomy she is and that entitles you to some kudos in raising her to be this way. Would you really rather have a daughter you can easily fit in a box, thus keeping her uniqueness contained and controllable? What would she continue to learn about life if you did?

Originally Posted by Dorasmum

I know I'm supposed to not argue back, just ignore it, not give her the attention she is after but It's really hard not to because I have to still either stop her from doing something or get her to do the thing I need her to do that she doesn't want to or has a different opinion on how to do.

Why shouldn't you argue back? What value is there in ignoring her and not giving her the attention she is after? There is a great explanation of this behaviour in one of the NLP threads that equates life (real life) with a game of tennis. Ie, you'll never 'win' if you hit the ball neatly back to your opponent. Your daughter has begun to understand what life (real life) is about and how one conducts themselves in it. It's the spin shots and the tricky just-over-the-net shots that win points in life. Independent thought! Kids are marvelous at it when we let them do it.

I am at a loss as to how to discipline her currently now too, she still has big tantrums, screaming and crying if I put her in the bathroom when I've had enough. She argues all the way there about how sorry she is and won't ever do it again. But it's all hollow as she'll do the same things the next day. I can get her where it hurts, and withhold a dvd viewing but the stress she gives me over that is worse than the thing she was being punished for in the first place. I just feel like she's lost all respect for me.

How would you relate to your daughter if she wasn't five years old? What if she was twenty-five? How would you receive this behaviour then? How would she receive the 'discipline' that you're currently practising now? Puts a new slant on it, hey?

I'm tired of it, she's not at school yet, I don't know if that'll make the problem better or worse when she starts in a couple of months. I'm hoping it'll improve it because I know she's bored here at home and boredom creates mischief.

What aspect of this behaviour is a 'problem'? (See above tennis analogy - I will try to find that NLP thread for you and bump it.)

She can be, used to be more and is around others a lovely, polite, slightly shy girl, but I don't see it as much at home anymore. It's there but I guess she's working around her developing little brain in the best way she can see. It's normal right?? Any ideas??

Yes, it's normal and if she stayed 'a lovely, polite, slightly shy girl' for the rest of her days, do you think she would have the life skills to create a satisfying, fulfilled, empowered kind of life for herself?

You liked her better in her box 'cos it was easier for you, but now she's breaking out of it. She's changing and maturing. Which means that if you value your connection with her, you will need to change and mature too. *walks away humming One Step Ahead Of You*


Incorporating my children's growing maturity into my own personal growth and self-awareness is an ongoing challenge but also, I find, the most satisfying aspect of parenting. This is why I became a parent and I try not to take the hurdles personally.

[Dorasmum]

I don't want her to be a easily led, compliant child, It's just that it's been a big change lately, a major shift in attitude. She was never perfect but I did understand her more. That's where I felt the difference between the two girls. I've never understood DD2, and I'll be expecting more of the challenges as she gets older, but DD1 was more predictable and I usually knew what was going on even with the bad behaviour. It's just the shift, the change that is bothering me. And I suppose there is a big element of losing control of her as she grows up. She's becoming more independant and individual. I just need to get used to that. Oh and the other big factor is that I'm about 90% of the discipline, so I lose patience way too easily.

i have to go out so I need to have another proper read of your responses later, thanks, Em

[Meridith]

My 5 year old daughter has become extremely argumentative. She'll counter everything I say just for the sake of it. She also says "but I'm 5 now" like that makes her the ultimate authority on everything, and able to do everything on her own.

Oh I laughed when I read this. Sorry, but I did. This is my 3yo and has been since she was 10mo and started talking (her first word/sentence was, "No. I don't want that one.") and the days of intense frustration where my stress-relief valve was telling a trusted friend that I wished I could sell DD on ebay to the days of delighting in this intelligent, strong, quick-witted personality who trusted me so much that she let her all hang out when she was with me. This is where I live.

The ebay days are few now, I really don't want to sell her (thanks to 18mo of psychotherapy tho there are days when I'm ready to change my name by deedpoll from mum to something DD doesn't know yet) and the voice of authority wakes around 6 each morning and talks nearly constantly for 12 hours. She demands my attention for every comment and quizzes me on what she says ("Mum, answer my question of what I just said." "Oh, um can you tell me the question again?" "No, you can remember - you were meant to be listening. You really need to listen to my words.") and is expert on every topic that presents, even those she hasn't met before.

We passed some cows, I jokingly said that those animals go 'baaaaa'. Miss 3 said, "That's right mum." I hurridly backpeddled and said I was joking, they're really cows - they say "Moooo!" "Actually mum, they really do go baaa you know." That was nearly as apoplectically funny as her arguing herself blue with me over the udder on the toy cow and scrotum on the toy bull (tiny plastic animals in her farm toob) "Actually" no, it did not mean that one was female and the othe male - it meant that both cows were boys, one just had broken hang-y bits on it. The patient, nearly patronising tone she uses with me - her antiquated mother - oh I have to laugh or it would drive me batty.

I do engage in arguement to a point. I think it is good to have the opportunity to voice our own opinions - I know I like to and my child *needs* me to challenge her opinion and knowledge base, to respect her voice and present fact so that she can choose to ignore it or remember it for next time (&/or learn the value of others opinions). When it gets to a rediculous did not/did too point I initiate the agree-to-disagree and suggest we talk about something else now.

I attempt to face parenting with much humour. The days that I can't I have some fairtrade chocolate stashed away and a trusty Wiggles dvd.

On a more serious note - and I do know 5 is different from 3 (just sharing I know how tiring it can be) spending some time on what it is about your daughter that is pushing your buttons might be helpful. I often find that my intense emotional responses to DD (like today when I picked her up from the chair she was refusing to vacate - my chair - and dumped her on the couch) are not really about her at all, but about my own issues. Case in point, my mother struggled with sharing patience amongst 3 little ones, she wanted her requests met quickly and without question. Questioning resulted in mother losing patience and responding with yelling or force.

When my daughter refused to let me back into my chair thus slowing me down (we were on our way out and were cutting it close) my gut response was how inconsiderate she was being, slowing me down and affecting out time out together doing fun things. My demand was that she let me sit down so I could finish my task quickly - her refusal triggered sudden rage in me, what I wanted was not unreasonable - why couldn't she just let me get what I needed done, why couldn't she see I was in a hurry? Why didn't she know how to play the game and get out of my way.....just like I learnt to do.

My greatest blessing is this child who confronts me, who has a gift with words and tells me that my voice hurt her, my loud voice scared her, my actions left her feeling angry and scared. My challenge is to listen and not let the size of the person telling me some confronting truths stop me from truly hearing.

It's darned challenging, this parenting path.

[Dorasmum]

Oh it happens every time, several NP'ers come on and give such a measured sensible responses I end up feeling like a complete grumble bum, but that is good, it's what I need.

Also of concern though is the situations like today when she bounds out of the car,over the green strip and onto the pavement and a metre from the road with cars rushing by, I call her to come back over to the car and it's instant "no mum, it's ok, I'm a big girl now, I'm safe because I'm 5..." or words to that effect. It takes me going around and physically hauling her back to the car. She disregards me and I'm afraid it may end up in something more serious than me being just annoyed.

Em

[hanabi]

Originally Posted by Meridith

My challenge is to listen and not let the size of the person telling me some confronting truths stop me from truly hearing.

Oh Meridith. Yes, it is my challenge too.

[GreenGully]

Also of concern though is the situations like today when she bounds out of the car,over the green strip and onto the pavement and a metre from the road with cars rushing by, I call her to come back over to the car and it's instant "no mum, it's ok, I'm a big girl now, I'm safe because I'm 5..." or words to that effect. It takes me going around and physically hauling her back to the car. She disregards me and I'm afraid it may end up in something more serious than me being just annoyed.

If she stays a metre away form the road, isn't she safe? Maybe I am not understanding.

[hanabi]

Easy to respond in hindsight but could you have insisted, "Tell me what you're doing to stay safe." ??

[Meridith]

I read a Naomi Aldort article recently....Your child is like the Rain and this bit jumped out at me. When I remember it, the whole interaction is diffused.

The power of ‘Yes’

One way to quickly bring clarity to yourself is by saying ‘yes’ when you want to say ‘no’ (when safe). Once you are ‘boxed’ in your positive response, look for a way to fit with the ‘yes’. Your child is painting on the wall. ‘Yes, I can see how you would love to cover the wall with colours,’ and you cover the wall with paper or offer an easel. Or, ‘Yes, I see that you love to make your sister scream,’ and if little sister is not enjoying herself (she might), you can offer some other game that gives the child a sense of power. ‘Yes, I see that you like to tear books,’ as you offer old magazines for her to shred.

The ‘yes’ is a way to turn around your opposing reaction into cooperation with your child. ‘I see what she needs. How can I assist her?’ This will open your heart to peaceful solutions. If my child needs to bug her sister, I look for the reason and offer validation, listening and caring solutions.

One mother told me how she used this approach when her four-year-old was sitting on the windowsill of their fourth-floor apartment. She was ready to scream ‘no’ and scold ‘how many times did I tell you...’ Instead she said, ‘Yes’ and promptly knew how to go on validating his intent; ‘I see how much you love to look down from the window. Here is a stool you can use safely.’ She brought it to the window and moved the child over. The boy said, ‘But, Mom, I was safe on the window too.’ ‘I know,’ Mom responded, ‘but I was scared’. She spoke honestly about her needs and the boy was therefore happy to use the stool. She told me he has kept using it ever since.

WRT the road, does she understand how standing so close to the road can scare the drivers because they don't know that she isn't going to run out onto the road (like some 5yo do) and get hit? Does she know it scares you that maybe she might fall and get hurt? What do you say to her when she says "I'm safe because I'm 5..."?