The anti-vaccine movement - is it too late?

[hanabi]

The anti-vaccine movement - is it too late?

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The anti-vaccine movement: Is it too late for scientists to bridge the gap between evidence and fear? : Respectful Insolence

We've had lots of anti-vaccination discussions over the years but I wondered how this blog would fare with the anti-vax contingent of NP (of which I am one - though wavering). I was gonna post this in In The Media but decided it was too hot so it's in the Bull Pit instead.

What do you think?

[hanabi]

Re: The anti-vaccine movement - is it too late?

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And here's the opposite point of view from here at NP:

Vaccination- Making An Informed Decison

[Nyree]

Re: The anti-vaccine movement - is it too late?

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celebrity know-nothings like Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey dancing on their strings according to the will of their puppetmasters in the antivaccine movement

No - they are parents with a child who developed autism after vaccination. I think they'd know quite a bit!

"the current levels of thimerosal will not hurt children, but reducing those levels will make safe vaccines even safer"

Sounds dodgy to me!

Making matters worse, the study found, nearly all sites adopted an "us versus them" approach

As opposed to a "we're right because we're Scientists" God complex?

I did my research many years ago & have found nothing since to alter my views on vaccinations.

[smurray]

Re: The anti-vaccine movement - is it too late?

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Dear Jodie,

Thanks for posting that. I think its a good article, although there is some emotive language which is disrespectful, IMO.

For me deciding to vax or not was a numbers game. Likelihood of catching the illness (given that DH and I live in a city of 4 million and we travel) times potential severity of the illness if it was caught, divided by potential risks of the vaccine. I know its hard to get reliable figures on this, so I looked it up as best I could and made my best guess.

I don't believe that the bacteria and viruses causing infectious diseases today are 'natural' . IMO there is nothing 'natural' about the way bacteria and viruses mutate and spread in our modern society with cities of 3-4 million and jet travel. Our whole lifestyle is drastically different from that of 200 + years ago, and so too are our viruses and infectious bacteria.

[Jakaluma]

Re: The anti-vaccine movement - is it too late?

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This quote really sums it up well for me.:

One problem is that vaccines have been so successful that parents rarely see the full, ugly consequences of the diseases against which vaccines defend anymore. The other problem is that normal people can't adequately judge risk. They cannot understand that they do many, many things with their children that pose far more risk to them than vaccination ever could for a lesser benefit. For example, the risk of dying in an auto collision is several orders of magnitude higher than of a serious adverse event from a vaccine. The risk of death from playing baseball (hardball) is also several orders of magnitude higher than injury from a vaccine. Indeed, as I pointed out before, between four and five children per year die of injuries suffered while playing baseball, and well over 100,000 children a year are taken to the emergency room for injuries. Indeed, baseball has the highest child fatality rate of any sport, and there are nearly 3 million sports injuries a year in the U.S. So what do antivaccinationists fear more? Vaccines, of course! Why? Because they misunderstand science and expect scientists to prove that vaccines don't cause autism. Unfortunately, conclusively proving a negative is not possible in science. We can assign probability based on data, and numerous studies tell us that the chances that vaccines contribute significantly to autism is vanishingly small, but non-scientists think that it's possible to prove that vaccines don't cause autism and become suspicious when scientists qualify their statements. What to scientists is normal caution comes across to the public as waffling or weaseling.

Nyree, I have to say I disagree - there is no link at all between vaccination and autism

No - they are parents with a child who developed autism after vaccination. I think they'd know quite a bit!

[Emily33]

Re: The anti-vaccine movement - is it too late?

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I am pro-choice (not anti-vax). This blogger is expressing his opinion that those who question vaccinations are 'quacks'.

In concept, this is my opinion:

- The available adverse reaction statistics are dependent on a healthy process of reporting adverse reactions. I believe that this process has been deficient - that GPs haven't reported all reactions and downplayed their patients' concerns. We must believe the testimonials that are available of parents reporting adverse reactions to vaccines. The 'available' statistics aren't enough for me.

- In principle I believe in general health as the key to preventing illness and boosting immunity.

- That I am aware of the 'possible negative consequences' of vaccinating and the 'possible negative consequences' of not vaccinating - for each illness/disease/vaccine. It is my choice to choose which I believe is a greater risk for each vaccine.

- That under no circumstance should mandatory vaccination ever be permitted in Australia (or any other country). This is the individual's right to choose and not that of the State. It is my human right to protect my body and what is or is not injected into it.

These are the points that spring to mind about what is important to me and how I make my decisions regarding my health and our DD's.

This is a hot topic and the links are extreme - I believe the Bull Pit is the appropriate place for it!

[ENR]

Re: The anti-vaccine movement - is it too late?

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It is sad that most articles are fear based either way. When I read about anti vax they give me statistics to scare me away from vaccinating but it is the complete opposite pro vax.

I have read some really good artivles that seemed to be ruined by disrespectful words in places or just simply stupid things.

I don't know of any parent who has not not vaxed and hasn't educated themselves on the topic. I have met a few people who didn't even know vaccinating was an issue but you meet people who are so passionate about not vaccinating because they have read about it and spent the time making an informed choice.
Either way of the argument I believe if you have informed yourself and then made a choice then I can't judge at all.

For me I am not completly against vaccinations right now though I believe some are a complete waste of time and some I would find dangerous such as the newer ones. I am not a parent and I don't plan to be in the next few years so I guess I would be a lot more passionate in educating myself on this if it related directly to me.

I can say that if I read about this topic and fear comes into I am fairly over the article anyways. There is a difference in giving me information and adding emotive words into it to persuade me but that is the way I am minded.

[Emily33]

Re: The anti-vaccine movement - is it too late?

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The blogger argues:

Another aspect that gives the antivaccine movement the edge, even more so than other anti-science denialist groups, is the power of the story. They routinely present such compelling testimonials of children regressing after a vaccine. It doesn't matter that epidemiology has shown repeatedly that correlation does not equal causation; the story is what matters because we are storytelling animals.

Here s/he is taking a stab at the importance of testimonials. As I mentioned before I believe this is an important part of conveying feedback when the boxes aren't there to be ticked.

Why doubt a parent's story? I've read detailed testimonials written by parents of babies who have received a vaccination and within a day has died. The detail there is indisputable and the causation is clear. To discount the parent's knowledge of her baby and knowledge of what she is reacting to is wrong. Following this blogger's logic... if you've ever blamed your child's change in behaviour or immunity on teething then you too are a 'quack'.

[smurray]

Re: The anti-vaccine movement - is it too late?

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Hi there,

I agree that its disrespectful and unhelpful to call people names or abuse them, as they did in that article.

I think the point about testimonials is that they can sometimes fire up our fears and our gut responses, rather than our minds, where we see the big picture. Sometimes our fears and gut responses are bang on! But sometimes they're not.

Because of the sheer number of kids getting vaxed each year (in Aus, its about 90% or more), just through pure chance there will be some kids that happen to get very sick on the same day. It could be caused by the vax. But it may not be.

I agree with the article that generally we're notoriously bad at accurately judging risk. If we read gut wrenching stories of families with kids dying from the measles, we might have a gut reaction to vax... but that too is not necessarily based on reality. It takes stepping back and seeing the big picture to make a good decision, IMHO.

[hanabi]

Re: The anti-vaccine movement - is it too late?

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Here's my conflict:

I'm pretty much in Emily's camp - that it's my body (or my child's body) and I have the right to decide what I put into it. I'm also concerned that, with the new discoveries about the nature of genetics and how they can be switched on and off according to environmental and dietary factors in previous generations that we are messing with something much bigger than the health of a single generation when we blanket immunise a population.

On the other hand, I can see (or understand for now) that immunisation programs in the developing worlds are a Good Thing in terms of eradicating or significantly containing debilitating illnesses like polio and TB, particularly where medical attention and access to medicines are limited.

I feel we in developed countries have the luxury to choose because our children are at lesser risk of contracting a serious childhood illness and having their lives derailed by complications from those illnesses. There was a recent health scare on the Sunshine Coast where seven or eight cases of measles quarantined a school - because of the high number of un-vaccinated students.

And yet, how can I not allow my children to be vaccinated yet believe that third world immunisation programs are necessary and good? Am I being a hypocrite here?